originally published in DEMYSTIFICATION #4 and presented here for you to read
When I finally got the chance to meet V. Vale, I had already been obsessed with his work for a decade. I came across his book Modern Primitives when I was still a teenager, getting tattooed every chance I got and reading everything about tattooing I could find. The cover - a dark photo of a veiled tattooed figure holding a snake - stood out to me, so I went to Vale’s website and ordered a copy of my own. When it came in the mail there was a piece of paper tucked inside with the words: “DEVELOP ALL your talents! Create as Much as Possible, In As Many Media As Possible! No Separation Between ART & LIFE…”
V. Vale’s GOALS OF LIFE was the exact direction I needed as a young person consumed equally by the passion to create and to rebel. I continued to live by these words and I’ve had a copy of them on the wall of every home I’ve ever lived since.
I started noticing Vale’s name everywhere. He created Search and Destroy - the first punk zines. He helped Ed Hardy put out the highly influential Tattoo Times magazines in 1982. He interviewed so many of my heroes in music and beyond - conversations with Genesis P-Orridge, William S Burroughs, Bell Hooks, J. G. Ballard and G.B Jones were suddenly accessible to me. I was already obsessed with zines, print media and outsider culture and Vale was the key to a whole new world brimming with knowledge and inspiration. And I really wanted to meet him. I knew he was in San Francisco, so when I visited last Summer I reached out to see if he would be open to an interview.
He invited me to come by his table - set up outside of City Lights bookstore on the weekends. He was standing alone behind the table with so many of the RE:Search titles spread out in front of him - Punk 77, copies of Search and Destroy and Tattoo Times, Dangerous Women and the Industrial Culture Handbook. Throughout our conversation so many people came up to the table. Vale would always stop and talk to every person, eager to introduce me to anyone stopping by. It became obvious how he really lives by the words he wrote “Be Enthusiastic and Passionate. Strive to Bring Out Everyone’s Talents.” Old friends from the neighborhood would stop by just to check on him. And at the end his partner Marian came by to chat and help him pack up the table.
On subsequent trips to the Bay, I came back to take photos of Vale, introduce him to my friends, meet his cat and brought him a copy of this very interview to proofread - and each time I was welcomed so warmly. I saw that Vale is not only an underground media legend worldwide but also a pillar in his community. This man truly knows everyone. And after hours of talking to him, I still have a million questions. This interview is just a glimpse into the conversations that happen at his table outside of City Lights almost every weekend in San Francisco.
(I tried to preserve the conversation as it flowed, between Vale, myself and the various people who came up to the table - side conversations are marked by italics)
Sema: Do you have any tattoos?
Vale: No (laughs and shakes head) I have none.
Sema: What! (laughs) Then how did you get involved with Ed Hardy?
Vale: It was 1977. I met him because it was the early punk scene. When punk just began - you could and did meet everybody. And I love that. And I didn't know anything about Ed tattooing, but Ed had just been to London where he checked out the London punk scene, which started earlier than ours in San Francisco. And I had a really good friend who was another one of the only other - I hate this phrase - People of Color in the early punk scene. And for some reason we became friends - his name's Leo Zulueta.
Sema: I know him! He tattooed my head.
Vale: Wow! Yeah, I sort of lost touch with him, but I'm sure, you know, if we saw each other that he'd be happy. Cuz he lives in Minnesota or somewhere freezing cold.
Sema: Ann Arbor Michigan! I’ve actually been to his home.
Vale: That's it! Michigan. Ann Arbor, Michigan. Wow you have? I mean I know it's freezing cold.
Sema: Well not so much in the summer.
Vale: Not in the summer. Okay.
Sema: But you met Leo?
Vale: Yeah. Yeah.. And it may be that Leo introduced me to Ed. So I went over to this place way back when -and just like me- he's got a million books. He's also -I don't wanna call myself a book collector, but believe me, wherever I go, I go to bookstores and look for something that might be kind of rare. You know?
Sema: Oh, totally. Same thing. When I first came to San Francisco I remember coming to City Lights because I’d heard so much about it.
Vale: Good. Good instinct.
Sema: I love book stores and collecting books. You can tell a lot about someone from the kind of books they’ve got.
Vale: Yeah exactly. When I went to Ed's house he had one million books. And I'm always looking for - I guess I was always looking for books that were unusual, let's put it that way, or weird. I just put out a zine called The Search for Weird. And he had all these books on tattoos and stuff that I didn't even know existed. So I was like, Wow! So we became friends. I mean, Ed made more money than me. I shouldn't put it this way, but he would take me out to dinner, which was very much appreciated in the punk days when I had no money.
And he probably took Leo out too - the three of us. So we became “friends”. And that was ‘77. And I didn't think of doing the Modern Primitives Book until ‘82, when this photographer named Charles Gatewood - RIP - Brought up Fakir Mustafar. And I said, oh boy! It's hard to get a hint of his life story. And I said, oh, I know I, that's when I thought of the idea. I actually came up with the phrase modern primitives, I already knew the phrase because in the seventies, before punk even started, I'd gotten into naive art. You know?
Cause there used to be all these books you could buy and they called it naive art.
Sema: Like Art Brut or folk art?
Vale: Yeah, it's like Art Brut. And it's like naive art. And it's like outsider art. That's what the New York Times calls it.
Sema: How do you feel about that term?
Vale: They're all acceptable to me. As long as people check out the art.
I'm all in favor of books that incite curiosity, just to get more people checking out art that's sort of outside the museum gallery system - but not quite outside. And so, it wasn’t when I met Leo and Ed that I thought of the idea of Modern Primitives. It was Fakir - because he had done so much. And then I realized - well here's my concept for the book that people don't even really know…
Sema: What is it?
Vale: It's trying to put under the covers of one book- every single body adornment practice that humans have done all over the planet. Since time began.
Sema: Yeah! That's pretty ambitious! Do you think you succeeded at that?
Vale: I tried. And I couldn't get a real human to talk about it in an interview yet. But I have a pretty big quotation section for this project. I collected a six foot bookshelf of books for the project. There’s anthropology books, old national geographics - you could get them, still get them, pretty cheap at thrift stores. I mean, from my teens and twenties. They're really better when they're old - because then they're uncensored. I mean - how can I say this politely? They would dare to print pictures of naked breasted women!
Sema: Which is such an important thing. I mean, if you're talking about body modification you kind of have to address body censorship and freedom…
Vale: Yeah. And I did not know that anyone would buy - rather I was afraid no one would buy Modern Primitives.
Sema: And now it's everywhere! And it shaped so many conversations about body modification since then.
Vale: Yeah exactly and one thing I actually realized after is that it gave a lot of young rebel artists work. You know, it's hard to build an art career and it was even harder then. Someone told me that the number of tattoo artists listed in the yellow pages really took off after it was published. And they also started having yellow pages for body piercing! That was never there before.
I mean, that's the main thing that the book introduced. Because tattooing - people had at least heard of that. Piercing too, but they hadn’t known you could get all this variety.
You know? Like bold black designs or full color body suits? They hadn’t seen that. Or extreme body piercing or scarification. Scarification never got super popular.
Sema: True, it is more extreme. But there's still, like pockets where it's becoming more popular.
Vale: Well, see, you never know.
Sema: (Points to their arm) This tattoo is actually from one of the drawings in Modern Primitives. In Hanky Panky’s section.
Vale: Oh wow! And he did it?
Sema: Yeah!
(One of Vale’s old friends comes up to the table - an artist who used to live in SF but moved to Canada and hasn’t been back in years. They embrace and Vale introduces us. We talk about tattooing, art, traveling and the idea of a chosen family. It's incredible how Value seems to know everyone. And invites people into his world and keeps up those connections.)
Vale: Oh Did we stray from your interview?
Sema: It's all good! (laughs) We were talking about Modern Primitives.
Vale: So Modern Primitives was first. And then in 1980 - I started a typography typesetting business called RE/Search typography. And Ed Hardy, my friend all along, hired me to do the typography for Tattoo Time. He did five issues. Yeah. And at the beginning, especially, if you typeset - you can't help but edit. In other words, correct misspelling, obviously. I also transcribed tapes of interviews.
Sema: Yeah I do that as well.
Vale: Yeah. You have to, you have to do it all yourself. Yeah. And the hardest thing is to try to get all your friends or people to come over to proofread like “Hey read this interview.” You know? You just have to ask your friends for help.
Sema: Absolutely.
Vale: So yeah, Five issues of Tattoo Time. And then I made my most intense book. And it really didn't sell. It was Bob Flannagan - Supermasochist. I won't dare bring it out here cuz kids look at these books. But, you know, I've done a few books that are kind of “forbidden” - or maybe they're not about body art, but they're about other forbidden practices. Pushing the limits in other ways. Like “Confessions of Wanda von Sacher-Masoch” and “The Torture Garden”.
Sema: Yeah! I have the Torture Garden.
Vale: Ooh, that's rare now. Cause yeah, cause I never did that many. Good for you. Yeah. Wow. Good for you.
Sema: (laughs) I like your books
Vale: Yeah. That's proof! If you got the Torture Garden. Yeah. I mean, I love the photo sessions for that book. And I'm the one who typed all the quotes. There's a different pull quote on top of every page. And of course I picked those out.
Sema: You did all the type-setting?
Vale: Oh yeah.
Sema: I was gonna ask, cuz I know Genesis P-Orridge is in Modern Primitives. How did you know Gen?
Vale: Yeah. I met (Gen) … well I put out a very early interview with (Gen) in Search and Destroy Magazine #6
Sema: Oh! I don't have that one.
Vale: It's there (points to the table)
Sema: I'll get it! (laughs) But yeah, like I feel like s/he was definitely someone who pushed boundaries as well.
Vale: Oh yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you probably saw - I did a color photo book.
Sema: Yeah. I have this one as well.
Vale: Oh, you have it? I do. Oh, cool!
Sema: Super fan.
(Vale shows a photo of young Genesis P-Orridge in stiletto high heels and short hair, wearing eye makeup - looking directly at the camera)
Vale: Wow! See? That's a harbinger of (Gen). What (s/he) would later become.
Sema: Wow yeah! Like a premonition?
Vale: Yeah. A premonition. So this was taken in like ‘ 81 or ‘ 82 before the (Pandrogyne) project.
Sema: But you can see the gender variance. So cool. I'm trans too, so Gen’s really important to me.
Vale: Oh I see! (points at a photo of a car on the opposite page) This is a trans car. (laughs) No, I'm just kidding. I love this photograph.
Sema: Wait, how did you get into punk?
Vale: Oh, well, I wanted it to happen. I mean, seriously. Because there was the hippie thing, which I was also sort of into. Like I never liked drugs and hippies did a lot of drugs. And also I didn’t really like psychedelic clothes. I’m more of a minimalist.
So I figured these social movements happen almost every 10 years. And then the next radical social movement is a reaction to the earlier one. So what would be the reaction to the hippie movement? People would wear all black. And instead of long hair? They cut it really short and spiky. And also for feminists - it was really the first time you actually saw women in public, almost cursing, just daring to, you know, be kinda pushing it. And it was great.
And that was in the punk scene. In the early days anyone could get up and do something once at our club and have a supportive audience. We had - we have some very radical pioneers.
Sema: Lydia Lunch was just here?
Vale: Yeah, and she got into punk earlier than us in Rochester, New York and New York City. You know punk started way earlier in New York than here. It didn’t start here until January ‘77.
Sema: What do you count as the start?
Vale: Well for me, it sort of started but not really in August ‘76 when the Ramones played their first show here. There were like 30 people in a tiny club. They played on the floor. No stage. It was very strong. I wish I had pictures of that. I can’t believe I didn’t bring my camera. But the whole audience was like people that later started punk. Including me.
Sema: Wow! What was your punk band?
Vale: I’ve got it right here (picks up a copy of Punk ‘77 by RE:Search Pubs and flips to a picture of himself with long hair, bangs and a leather jacket) This is me. It was January. I have the exact date in my diary, but I should have put it here. It was January, 1977 and that's why it's called Punk ‘77. I'll show you a picture of my band.
Sema: Oh, there you are again!
Vale: Yeah. I started this band before I started Search And Destroy magazine and there's my lead singer. (points to a photo of himself and Don Vinyl)
Sema: What was the band called?
Vale: Grand Mal as in epileptic seizure. And you know, I was the bass player and songwriter.
(Grand Mal eventually changed their name to Negative Trend and members from the band went on to start Flipper)
Vale: And then. And then there's one more photo of me just talking to people.
There it is. That's the drummer for the Nuns. The Nuns were one of the first two local punk bands, Nuns and Crime. And this guy was a very smart, brilliant guy. He was the songwriter for U.X.A. You know, you have to say, no one's heard it, but they had great songs.
(The tape is up on youtube. I listened to it after the interview. And it's great)
Sema: I'll check them out.
Vale: I hope there's something on what do you call it - YouTube. I hope so. I haven’t gone and looked for it. I have my own cassette tape that I made.
Sema: And you said punk is how you met Leo Zulueta?
Vale: Well, definitely. Underground! Boy am I glad that happened.
Sema: Yeah! Me too. He’s one of a kind.
Vale: Yeah. And the nice thing about when an underground like that happens. Everyone really does hate you. (laughs) Yeah, you'd get yelled at from cars on the street. But they were probably coming in from Concord or somewhere. I hope they weren't San Franciscans. But anyway, when people hate you - as a new underground - then it tends to make you stronger. I think. And you value each other more.
Sema: Yeah definitely. I’m sure it made you stronger as a community, but in your own identity too.
Vale: Definitely and also mutual aid too. Cause yeah. You know, everybody needs help surviving - if you're going against the grain.
Sema: Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely.
Vale: (a young couple and their child comes up to the table) Oh, how cute. My daughter is 26 and my advice is - without going overboard - I wish I had more videos of her young. I have still photos, but actually back then, video was not affordable. But now with the iphone you could do it. Just saying!
(the child comes up to the table and picks up the zines while the parents ask Vale about the titles before walking away)
Vale: Yeah, I publish everything on the table. Yeah I worked here, so I’m still here. Anyway… symbiosis. I take credit cards.
Sema: Do you get a lot of people coming by?
Vale: No. No, I get very few customers. I think I'm lucky to get between two and eight customers per shift. And I used to work here till like six o'clock, but then I realized, you know - looking at my iPhone. It tells you the time every picture was taken, that's a miracle. And I realized, gee, I hardly have any sales after three. So maybe I should just stay here till three. And then in the long run - I'd like to come here every day. But I don't always have the energy. You know? I mean, I was gone for two weeks recently. I didn't come here. But I also pick out the best days for me - financially - on Saturday and Sunday.
(Vale’s friend asks Venmo Vale for a zine. It takes awhile to figure it out)
Vale: That's amazing. This is a miracle
I’m grateful for all these technologies that help artists get paid. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it benefits you too.
Sema: It actually does.
(some people come up to the table and start flipping through one of the J.G. Ballard books)
Vale: I’m a huge Ballard fanatic. This one is super rare. I mean I only did 500 hardbacks on the most deluxe paper. You have to look at it from the beginning, but look at the back cover first. Very smart.
I know that he wrote Crash. I watched the movie. Yeah! And he did a High Rise. But Crash is one of my favorites. Good, good instinct. Yeah. I love Crash and the book. Yeah. Yeah. And it inspired the song Warm Leatherette. Oh yeah. Warm Leatherette. Hey you're good. Warm Leatherette. Yeah. Yeah. But I like the Grace Jones version.
But J.G. Ballard! I got an early interview with him in Search and Destroy Number 10, 1978. It's in the very back of that pile. You got it? This is Sema. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too! How do you know Vale? I ran into them chatting and doing this interview. Oh an interview? Yeah this is being recorded is that okay? Of course! Do you need to get back to it?
It's still running, but I like all of this. I feel like it's just as important. Community. Documentation. But how long have you known Vale? Oh for years. We would run into each other at art fairs and zine fairs and all the amazing events. We gradually started talking. Yeah, we have mutual connections in the arts community. Yeah. Amazing. Wait, I gotta get another picture of the three of you. Oh, I'll take it with you. Well, that's okay. But we can do all the pictures. We should get a picture with you. Good to see you, Sema? What an unusual name. Can we get one more picture? Good to see you! Thanks!
Sema: I really am a fan of the quantity of work that you put out. And just the enormous span of things you’re interested in and people you interview.
Vale: Oh, well, thanks. No matter who I interview, I try and stay out of their way of talking. That's how the best ones happen.
Sema: Always! That's what I’m trying to do here.
Vale: Yeah! Well I interviewed a filmmaker in LA for my Incredibly Strange Films. It should be there. No? I have to remember to bring one. I didn't bring one today.
But anyway, I interviewed a guy named Larry Cohen and it's so good that I spent a month correctly getting ready for the interview. Because back then, before the internet, it was very hard to find information. But I got a complete list of actors and even like cinema cameramen - cinematographers - that I could find. And I was so glad I had that list. Because he made so many films he couldn’t remember all of them and if I didn’t have that list it wouldn't have been any good.
(Larry Cohen is most famous for directing “Its Alive”, “It Lives Again” and “The Stuff”. He directed over 40 horror and sci-fi films)
Cause normally I do prep for an interview - if I can. You know, if it's not too difficult.
Sema: How do you reach out to people?
Vale: It's usually just natural. I don't really reach out. It's usually luck. Like they just come into my life. They come into my life and then, I’ll say “Hey here” (gestures to my recorder)
Sema: (laughs) It helps to be always ready.
Does anybody have a cigarette? I got you. Oh, you smoke? No. Oh, my God, we’ve failed them. What, what? No, she said they're shaming me for smoking. Oh, do you smoke? No. I don't. I used to, but you know, I gave it up. Only on vacation? No, I'm stopping tomorrow. Oh yeah. Yeah, please do. I'm just, how long are you here? She said three more days. I'm leaving on Thursday. So I'm gonna be loose and take drugs like nicotine and cigarettes. Right? That's the only thing I do because this is being recorded. That's hilarious. It's hard. It is, but I've stopped many times. That's what they all say. You just have to stop. You have to say, I don't want to give my money to those people.
(Marian comes up to the table and Vale introduces her. We start to pack up the table. A person comes up to the table and says Oh Are You Packing Up? Vale says Oh yes but what are you interested in? Marian and I have a side conversation about the interview. The person leaves with a book. And the topic of food comes up)
It is, I just had a piece and boy was it delicious? I know everyone loves it. I am like the only person who doesn’t get it. But don't take my word. Please. I eat it sometimes, but it's not my go to thing. Where many people come from all over the world to go there and have Golden Boy pizza. Everybody. They wait in line. I went with my little sister last year. Yeah, my God. She's always wearing the RE/Search t-shirt. Oh I need one of those! Wow. Thank you. Somebody came up to me in Portland, on my drive when I was driving across the country and the person who was checking my ID at the bar - he just stared at my shirt. He was like, wait, you know, RE/Search? I’ve never met anybody else who knows them. I love it! It's like a secret network. Of all the best people.
Sema: Are you still writing? Are you still making things?
Vale: Well, yeah but they generally tend to be zines. Because they're easier and faster.
Sema: Yeah. It's true. What is the last one that you made?
Vale: I'm trying to remember.
Marian: The last zine you made? Probably one of these was the last one. It might have been this one? Or was it this one?
Vale: Okay. Let's put these away. She edits the stuff and does the layout. You usually edit everything I do..
Sema: And do you write as well?
Marian: Sometimes I write but I usually edit.
Vale: She’s a good person to have around! You have to get all your friends to help with that sort of thing.
Marian: I wrote in the Cat Zine.
Vale: The Purr-zine. Our cat died during COVID. And I said, we gotta remember this cat! Let's do a zine on the cat. And by god we did. (points to a book that Marian is holding) You’ve already got this one.
Marian: I know. I was just looking because this is what I always write. (points to the back cover of the book) I always write the things on the back.
Sema: Wow! I didn’t know that. And how did you two meet? You’ve been together for a while right?
Vale: Who her? Oh we met through the punk scene.
Sema: (laughs) It's how anyone meets anyone.
Vale: Well in my world, yeah! And yours too. We met through the punk scene a long time ago. I met her in I guess ‘79 to ‘80 because we had a mutual friend. A great photographer named Ana Barrado. So Anna was friends with her, so we had met, but we didn't date until 14 years later. Or was it 15? At least 14 years. Life practicality. I don't know. We were not in the same place. I mean, we just never saw each other.
Marian: He'll always say it's cuz I had a boyfriend. But it's cuz he had a girlfriend! But then we met up at a movie. Randomly. And we both said “Oh, you like to go to the movies?”
Sema: Do you remember the movie?
Vale: No.
Marian: Yes, I do!
Vale: You do? What movie was it?
Marian: Well, it was a Japanese film festival. I think I still have the program but I don’t remember exactly.
Vale: Oh you do? It might have been something like Branded to Kill? One of those Japanese gangster films, black and white.
Marian: And that's how you know, we just descended upon the same place. And I got in line with him and his friend Charles…
Vale: Gatewood
Sema: With Charles Gatewood? He was there?
Vale: Oh yeah, Gatewood and I went to the thing and then somehow we were, we were at the same place in line. And Gatewood said, “Did you two plan to meet here?” And I said, “No!”
Marian: Vale said “It was fate.”
Vale: Oh, I said it was fate yeah. Yeah. Always be philosophical.
Sema: I love that. So do you believe in fate?
Vale: I don't know… now that you say it.
Sema: It's more poetic than anything, right?
Vale: It's a funny word isn’t it. As a concept.
Sema: In Arabic we say Maktoub
Vale: Oh yeah, Maktoub. Yeah, “it is written” is what that means, literally. Yeah, I read Paul Bowles. Incredible. But fate. Fate is a very strange concept. I mean I don't like to be religious and, and use words like predestination. That's a religious word to me.
Sema: I think it can be different.
Vale: I hope it's different. I hope so too. Yeah. I mean, I hope it's different from fate.
Sema: Yeah. Anything else you wanna add before the recording is over? Or any message that you want to send to younger people making zines, self publishing or pursuing their interests?
Vale: So I’ll just say be very careful who your friends are. Or your best friends are. I say it in my GOALS of LIFE sheet. I say, “Try to be friends with the smartest, most rebellious…” but what should be said first is funniest.
Sema: Yes, humor! It's so important in your work. Like in Pranks!
Vale: Yes, humor is so important. Like any two people can create humor just by paying attention to each other. Because I should say if you make a pun or a rhyme or an alliteration. A lot of times you don't even know you did. Cause you were just talking. You know, rattling away. And then someone else says, “Hey, you just made a pun or you just made a rhyme”.
Sema: So it's about the attention.
Vale: Yeah. Or it takes two, in other words. And that's why you want your friends to always be people who support you and in fact, positively encourage you. You know? To do whatever you do. Like there probably was someone in your past who tried to discourage you from tattooing? There probably were many.
Sema: Yeah many.
Vale: Well that's bad. That’s so sad but it's real.
Sema: But then there were also many who encouraged me.
Vale: Well, those are the ones. Those are the keepers. Because nothing's more important than your own creativity. Like I said, in the GOALS of LIFE sheet - Create In As Many Mediums As Possible.
Sema: I think that’s a perfect note to end on. But thank you so much for talking with me.
Vale: Well thank you for being my patron.
Sema: Oh, absolutely. My pleasure.
_____________________________________
You can find Vale outside of City Lights in SF on select weekends, on instagram at @vale_research and www.researchpubs.com. Buy his books, you won’t regret it.
You can find Sema in NYC at Flower World Tattoo, on instagram at @sema.tattoo and www.nassimdayoub.com
*** An amazing analysis of Fakir Mustafar and Modern Primitives can be found here: Fareed Kaviani “The Untold Story behind the ‘Father of Contemporary Body Modification’ is One of Racial Exploitation” https://www.the4thwall.net/blog/fakirmusafar
